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 when red daemon decides to genocide stardust

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lingbu
Judai Yuki
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PostSubject: when red daemon decides to genocide stardust   Tue Sep 23, 2008 8:46 am

OK here is the common question asked by alot of ppl :
red daemon attacks stardust in def mode.
can stardust negate?

answer: NO!

lets take a look at the english translation for red daemon dragon:

Red Daemon's Dragon 「レッド・デーモンズ・ドラゴン」
DARK/Dragon - Synchro/8/3000/2000
Tuner + 1 or more Non-Tuner monster
When this card attacks a Defense Position monster your opponent controls, after Damage Calculation, destroy all Defense Position monster your opponent controls.
If this card is face-up during your End-Phase, destroy all monsters you control that didn't declare an attack during this turn except this card.

OK see these very large words!!!

wat is after damage calculation?
izit equivalent to "drillroid" wich is during dmg step??
NO again. drillroid effect is activated during dmg step, but red daemon is after dmg step as in the monster has been sent to the graveyard...

so how can stardust still negate red daemon(not being the drillroid) while it has been BATTLED and gone to sleep in grave...

in the case of monsters that cannot be destroyed by battle liek spirit reaper. after dmg calculation , when red daemon has successfully declared attack on spirit reaper, then reaper gets destroyed by red daemon.

correct me if im wrong see yaaaa
lingbu signing offfff
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sp1nn3r
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PostSubject: Re: when red daemon decides to genocide stardust   Tue Sep 23, 2008 10:16 am

When Red Daemon Dragon attacks Stardust Dragon in defense position, Stardust Dragon will NOT be able to activate its effect to kill off Red Daemon Dragon. Poor Stardust. T_T

I will explain the "damage step" thing to help clear up for lingbu. So, its gonna be long and tedious *sorry*.

When you "accept" an attack aka pass on an attack, you go straight into damage step. The first step of the damage step (I dont know its name) allows monsters that have a trigger effect that prevents the monsters in battle to go either damage calculation, flip the card face-up or both to be activated. A good example would be yi dao liang duan aka Sasuke Samurai. It kills off the monster BEFORE reaching any of those 2 steps.

The next attack step would be activating effects that are triggered in the damage step, this includes flip effect (if the monster is face-down, it is flipped face-up now).

Now, we talk about damage calculation. Players always like to say "damage step, play Shrink" or something like that, they basically mean this step known as damage calculation step. So, at this time, players start to play their damage modifier cards and counter traps. After the chain (only one chain; so if your opponent plays Solemn Judgment, you cannot play another speed 2 attack/defence modifier) has been stacked, it will then be resolved step by step. Then the attack of the attacking monster and the attack/defence (whichever relevant) of the defending monster would be compared. Life points would then be deducted accordingly.

Only after damage calculation, is the monster considered to be destroyed. The following types of monster would now activate its effect.
- Monsters that have its effect states that "when XXX is destroyed" would now be activated.
- Monsters with continuous effect that prevents it from being destroyed would now take place as well.
- Flip/reverse effect monsters
Similarly, monsters with continuous effect would lose its effect at this point of time as it is being destroyed.

After all of the above has been done, the monster is sent to the graveyard and the damage step concludes.


So, lingbu to answer the rest of your questions... Let's try using what has been said.

1) Drillroid's effect is activated DURING damage step because it says "skip damage calculation" NOT skip "damage step". Similarly, Red Daemon's effect is triggered "AFTER damage calculation" NOT "after damage step".

2) Yes, the poor Stardust has died, it can't negate. T_T

3) Spirit Reaper does NOT get destroy by Red Daemon Dragon through battle. Spirit Reaper cannot be destroyed by battle, this is the continuous effect that Spirit Reaper has and its effect will take place in the damage step to prevent it from dying. But Spirit Reaper still dies from the effect of Red Daemon Dragon when its been attacked in defence position or was one of the defence position monsters. Although the effect was single target, it's effect still destroys defence position monster. Remember, Spirit Reaper is only granted immortality against battle; not all effects.

This post should be long enough.
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lingbu
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PostSubject: Re: when red daemon decides to genocide stardust   Tue Sep 23, 2008 11:20 am

wow nice post.
this is a useful one..
THX
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bahamut84
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PostSubject: Re: when red daemon decides to genocide stardust   Tue Sep 23, 2008 12:21 pm

The thing about Red Demon is it cannot kill any monster in defense position by battle, ever.

An example is Red Demon attacking into a face down Giant Rat. Giant Rat would not get to activate it's effect because it's been destroyed by effect and not by battle.

--------------------------------------------------------
Q:このカードと戦闘をおこなった守備表示モンスターの守備力をこのカードの攻撃力が超えていた場合、戦闘と効果のどちらで破壊されますか?
A:その場合でもこのカードの破壊する効果が発動し、効果により破壊された扱いになります。(08/03/31)
 戦闘により破壊された扱いにはならないので、《キラー・トマト》などの効果は発動しません。
--------------------------------------------------------

IF you take this example and apply it to Stardust Dragon, considering that it has not been sent to the graveyard, it would be able to activate it's effect before getting sent to grave.

And another example that I can find is Death Calibur Knight.

When Airknight Parshath Tramples a Defense mode position Death Calibur and triggers the Card Draw effect, Death Calibur can tribute itself to negate the card draw and destroy Parshath.

--------------------------------------------------------
◇このカードが戦闘で破壊が確定した場合でも、墓地に送られる前に誘発した効果に対して効果は発動する。
例1
「死霊騎士デスカリバー・ナイト」が守備の時に「天空騎士パーシアス」の攻撃を受けて破壊、
戦闘ダメージ与えたので「天空騎士パーシアス」の効果発動、これに対して「死霊騎士デスカリバー・ナイト」の効果が発動する。
--------------------------------------------------------

This is the closest example I can find.

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sp1nn3r
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PostSubject: Re: when red daemon decides to genocide stardust   Tue Sep 23, 2008 12:49 pm

I completely missed that baha, thanks. I was too involved with the damage step thing that I forgot Stardust was never destroyed via battle.
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lingbu
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PostSubject: Re: when red daemon decides to genocide stardust   Tue Sep 23, 2008 12:55 pm

hmm gt a point taken...

can briefly go thru wat the 'after damage step' happens?

from declare attack to the 'chim' steps behind?

thx
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kKbz
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PostSubject: Re: when red daemon decides to genocide stardust   Tue Sep 23, 2008 1:26 pm

''there is no chim step''

It is that simple if you dont think too complicated.

Nice ! Bahamut : To actually find time to get example from OCG

As i already gave lingbu an example from TCG

Now that we have examples from both TCG and OCG.

This should solve some pending and query issue upon this Red Demon Archfiend ^^"...
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PostSubject: Re: when red daemon decides to genocide stardust   Tue Sep 23, 2008 1:30 pm

refresh me...

i onli noe dmg step... the simple way...
like after dmg step the monster go slp in grave...

anyone care to say??
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kKbz
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PostSubject: Re: when red daemon decides to genocide stardust   Tue Sep 23, 2008 1:40 pm

I think you are familiar with drilloid's effect.

You just refer to the drilloid text since its almost similar plus easier to understands.
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PostSubject: Re: when red daemon decides to genocide stardust   Tue Sep 23, 2008 1:42 pm

but drillroid is actually different..
drillroid effect is dmg step.
red daemon mentioned after dmg step...

so thats y i dun understand...

sorry me for being noooooob...
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PostSubject: Re: when red daemon decides to genocide stardust   Tue Sep 23, 2008 2:09 pm

レッド・デーモンズ・ドラゴン
シンクロ・効果モンスター
星8/闇属性/ドラゴン族/攻3000/守2000
チューナー+チューナー以外のモンスター1体以上
このカードが相手フィールド上に存在する守備表示モンスターを攻撃した場合、
ダメージ計算後相手フィールド上に存在する守備表示モンスターを全て破壊する。
このカードが自分のエンドフェイズ時に表側表示で存在する場合、
このターン攻撃宣言をしていない自分フィールド上の
このカード以外のモンスターを全て破壊する

ドリルロイド
効果モンスター
星4/地属性/機械族/攻1600/守1600
このカードが守備表示モンスターを攻撃した場合、
ダメージ計算前にそのモンスターを破壊する

Both text are almost similar,a slight different but other than the "phrasing"..(before/during/after damage calculation,its stills dont really affect to the answer upon your question) both effect trigger just the way it seems.

Back To your question :

After Bahamut's example and the 'phrasing' i highlight.
And if you stills pondering what is the answer if you stills unclear.

Here is the answer to your question ->

Simply means , Red Dragon Archfiend declares attack on defence mode Stardust Dragon :

Red Dragon Archfiend will trigger its effect after damage calculation , which then Stardust Dragon will be able trigger its effect Negating it.

Hope you are able to understands after soo much effort spent Sad

Some sentences are leech from TCG and OCG FaQ text, i may have copied down wrongly without notice error in the sentence but Please be understanding as there are always errors upon the FaQ one..

Thx again for the attention and patience, and have fun =]
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lingbu
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PostSubject: Re: when red daemon decides to genocide stardust   Tue Sep 23, 2008 2:13 pm

ダメージ計算後 & ダメージ計算前 this is the different part i saw...

thats wat im confused...
if its the same ting...
y they highlight before and after...

simply to say there is no difference between before dmg cow and after dmg cow??? for their effect jus that after dmg cow u nid eat dmg from battles?

sorry for the 'cow' ting... its calculation
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kKbz
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PostSubject: Re: when red daemon decides to genocide stardust   Tue Sep 23, 2008 2:25 pm

oh ya i missed to reply sp1nn3r on that ,

Just like what sp1nn3r said:

Quote :
Drillroid's effect is activated DURING damage step because it says "skip damage calculation" NOT skip "damage step". Similarly, Red Daemon's effect is triggered "AFTER damage calculation" NOT "after damage step".

Drillroid effect trigger - before without damage calculation.
Red Dragon Archfiend effect trigger - after damage calculations ..

From Bahamut's post :

Quote :
◇このカードが戦闘で破壊が確定した場合でも、墓地に送られる前に誘発した効果に対して効果は発動する。
例1
「死霊騎士デスカリバー・ナイト」が守備の時に「天空騎士パーシアス」の攻撃を受けて破壊、
戦闘ダメージ与えたので「天空騎士パーシアス」の効果発動、これに対して「死霊騎士デスカリバー・ナイト」の効果が発動する。

Means whether is before/during/after damage calculation. The monster actually stills on field until the whole effect/damage calculations etc has been resolved.

Hope this will clear the queries you guys are facing..
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PostSubject: Re: when red daemon decides to genocide stardust   Tue Sep 23, 2008 2:35 pm

kKkkKkkKkkkKKKK

understood...
so every ting is the same...
zzz yugioh simply rox lo..
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PostSubject: Re: when red daemon decides to genocide stardust   Tue Sep 23, 2008 5:44 pm

so the bottom line is stardust get to kill Red dragon archfiend easy jus by turning to def mode and say "come beat me la"?
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PostSubject: Re: when red daemon decides to genocide stardust   Tue Sep 23, 2008 8:27 pm

yewsoon: yes

Everyone else refer to Baha's answer for Stardust vs. Red Daemon. My fault.
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PostSubject: Re: when red daemon decides to genocide stardust   Tue Sep 23, 2008 11:57 pm

LOL my fault OSO...
cos i stubbornly tot that after dmg step is monster gone to grave...
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PostSubject: Re: when red daemon decides to genocide stardust   Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:03 am

I was worse, I completely forgotten Red Daemon's effect. I only remembered the part that it will kill your own monsters. Guess I hate Red Daemon too much... XD
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PostSubject: Re: when red daemon decides to genocide stardust   Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:16 am

jus tink that after dmg step...before dmg step and during dmg step...
is abt the same afterall...

zzz
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PostSubject: Re: when red daemon decides to genocide stardust   Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:20 am

Before damage step = before press calculator
After Damage step = after press calculator
Damage calculation = the time where you actually pressing the calculator

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PostSubject: Re: when red daemon decides to genocide stardust   Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:23 am

-_O|||

omfg!!!!

retarding on calculator..
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PostSubject: Re: when red daemon decides to genocide stardust   Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:26 am

I helping you simplify mah lol

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PostSubject: Re: when red daemon decides to genocide stardust   Wed Sep 24, 2008 1:33 am

Quote :
Before damage step = before press calculator
After Damage step = after press calculator
Damage calculation = the time where you actually pressing the calculator
I helping you simplify mah lol

quite detail i must say =)

Damn , i Should have explain this way. that will save me lots of troubles = ="

Quote :
Everyone else refer to Baha's answer for Stardust vs. Red Daemon. My fault.

sp1nn3r: chill,you never read properly ma ^^"
well, as a quite seasoned vs player.. you actually...........lala~

Razz Razz Razz Razz Razz Razz Razz Razz Razz Razz Razz Razz
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PostSubject: Re: when red daemon decides to genocide stardust   Wed Sep 24, 2008 1:05 pm

u gt trouble meh...
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PostSubject: Re: when red daemon decides to genocide stardust   Wed Sep 24, 2008 2:18 pm

ya lo.. i type so long you understands 75%.. lucky got ppl understands 100% ^^"

He type three lines , you understands 100% -.-"

Quote :
Before damage step = before press calculator
After Damage step = after press calculator
Damage calculation = the time where you actually pressing the calculator

You understands le cuz i think is not the ruling you dont understands.

Its the wording..but i also did pinpoint ..haha -.-"

I explain furthers cuz i saw what you post. which mean you dont understands after what bahamut posted:
Quote :
hmm gt a point taken...

can briefly go thru wat the 'after damage step' happens?

from declare attack to the 'chim' steps behind?

Phrase properly ma..T.T like that i can do less pasting marhx =/


Last edited by kKbz on Wed Sep 24, 2008 2:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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lingbu
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PostSubject: Re: when red daemon decides to genocide stardust   Wed Sep 24, 2008 2:20 pm

zzz i asked for after and before...
but all ppl reply me : yes u can negate red daemon without telling exact reason...

onli baha did..
thx anyway
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PostSubject: Re: when red daemon decides to genocide stardust   Wed Sep 24, 2008 2:31 pm

Ehh..from your reply , we can see that you stills dont get it after what he post.

Which is why i post about the 'phrasing ' before/during/after .. doesnt matter to your question

which is the 3 lines.. haha lost to Baha the simplified 3 lines..damn.. T.T

Oei , must thx me for the pasting , you kuku!! =x
Dont help you next time le..j/k
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PostSubject: Re: when red daemon decides to genocide stardust   Wed Sep 24, 2008 2:37 pm

i have ku ku la... i go male toilet de OK..
onli sam wan see yr kuku
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PostSubject: Re: when red daemon decides to genocide stardust   Wed Sep 24, 2008 2:38 pm

oh my god.... sounds gross = ="

** runs**
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PostSubject: Re: when red daemon decides to genocide stardust   Thu Sep 25, 2008 10:27 pm

lingbu wrote:
kKkkKkkKkkkKKKK

understood...
so every ting is the same...
zzz yugioh simply rox lo..

then u still say wanna quit???
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PostSubject: Re: when red daemon decides to genocide stardust   Fri Sep 26, 2008 12:19 am

yangkai36 wrote:
lingbu wrote:
kKkkKkkKkkkKKKK

understood...
so every ting is the same...
zzz yugioh simply rox lo..

then u still say wanna quit???

u quote this line and ask y i wanna quit?
i dun get it oso...ZZZZ

yugioh dun rox meh?
see how 'jiao' konami is...
so tats y i said yugioh '"ROX'" (sucks but i put it oppositely)
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PostSubject: Re: when red daemon decides to genocide stardust   Fri Sep 26, 2008 12:21 am

Question answered, there is no need for further discussion unless it is related. Keep it to the chat box if you wanna talk off topic stuff.

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PostSubject: Re: when red daemon decides to genocide stardust   Fri Sep 26, 2008 2:18 pm

Question answered and topic will be closed.
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