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 YGO-Cafe: Team Cup 2010 - 18th December 2010 @ Cardmaster

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Machinist
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PostSubject: Re: YGO-Cafe: Team Cup 2010 - 18th December 2010 @ Cardmaster   Thu Dec 02, 2010 9:57 pm

elijahkwanxy, you are oversea till this Sun or the next Sun?
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elijahkwanxy
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PostSubject: Re: YGO-Cafe: Team Cup 2010 - 18th December 2010 @ Cardmaster   Thu Dec 02, 2010 9:59 pm

@weswes and machinist. Until this SUN. i still got school lol.and i wont be free on weekends till 18 nov. coz my holiday starts by then. Weekdays i'll be free after 6pm.. If possible meet somewhere near semb coz after meetup i still got lotsa work and projects to clear.
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Machinist
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PostSubject: Re: YGO-Cafe: Team Cup 2010 - 18th December 2010 @ Cardmaster   Thu Dec 02, 2010 10:01 pm

elijahkwanxy wrote:
@weswes and machinist. Weekdays i'll be free after 6pm.. If possible meet somewhere near semb coz after meetup i still got lotsa work and projects to clear.

If it's weekday you want, I am available on 9th Dec(Thu) or 17th Dec(Fri). Not free on any other weekday since I'm working.
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weswes246
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PostSubject: Re: YGO-Cafe: Team Cup 2010 - 18th December 2010 @ Cardmaster   Thu Dec 02, 2010 10:02 pm

@elijahkwanxy huh after 6pm......How about u machinist are u free in the early afternoon on weekdays ?
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elijahkwanxy
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PostSubject: Re: YGO-Cafe: Team Cup 2010 - 18th December 2010 @ Cardmaster   Thu Dec 02, 2010 10:03 pm

Machinist wrote:
elijahkwanxy wrote:
@weswes and machinist. Weekdays i'll be free after 6pm.. If possible meet somewhere near semb coz after meetup i still got lotsa work and projects to clear.

If it's weekday you want, I am available on 9th Dec(Thu) or 17th Dec(Fri). Not free on any other weekday since I'm working.

hmm.. im kinda free on 10th dec. weswes?
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weswes246
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PostSubject: Re: YGO-Cafe: Team Cup 2010 - 18th December 2010 @ Cardmaster   Thu Dec 02, 2010 10:04 pm

@ machinist i can make it on both weekdays days that u are free. Also we can meet another time on next weekend Smile
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weswes246
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PostSubject: Re: YGO-Cafe: Team Cup 2010 - 18th December 2010 @ Cardmaster   Thu Dec 02, 2010 10:05 pm

@elijahkwanxy i am free on 10 dec
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Machinist
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PostSubject: Re: YGO-Cafe: Team Cup 2010 - 18th December 2010 @ Cardmaster   Thu Dec 02, 2010 10:05 pm

elijahkwanxy wrote:
Machinist wrote:
elijahkwanxy wrote:
@weswes and machinist. Weekdays i'll be free after 6pm.. If possible meet somewhere near semb coz after meetup i still got lotsa work and projects to clear.

If it's weekday you want, I am available on 9th Dec(Thu) or 17th Dec(Fri). Not free on any other weekday since I'm working.

hmm.. im kinda free on 10th dec. weswes?

Eh, 10th Dec? I am working on that day, oops, editing, I'm working night shift on 10th Dec, so I am available only at morn, or early noon on 10th Dec.
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elijahkwanxy
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PostSubject: Re: YGO-Cafe: Team Cup 2010 - 18th December 2010 @ Cardmaster   Thu Dec 02, 2010 10:07 pm

EDIT: lol then i cant, my schl ends at 4. how bout mon ?
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weswes246
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PostSubject: Re: YGO-Cafe: Team Cup 2010 - 18th December 2010 @ Cardmaster   Thu Dec 02, 2010 10:09 pm

@machinist its ok if me and elijahkwanxy meet first. three of us can meet next weekend too Smile
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Machinist
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PostSubject: Re: YGO-Cafe: Team Cup 2010 - 18th December 2010 @ Cardmaster   Thu Dec 02, 2010 10:15 pm

Monday cfm cannot since I all the way nite shift next wk. Too bad it's not morn shift work, or I can meet you guys. Only free on Thu(9th Dec) or weekend. I let you 2 meet up 1st bah.
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navinetwork
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PostSubject: Re: YGO-Cafe: Team Cup 2010 - 18th December 2010 @ Cardmaster   Thu Dec 02, 2010 10:54 pm

Machinist wrote:
weswes246 wrote:
Hey Smile Anybody needs another duelist ?

I got BF and Machina Karakuri Smile

MY machina karakuri deck is testing out pretty good (beaten quickdraw, BF, machina gadget during my play testing with some players Smile )

PLEASE NOTE : MY deck list is not like Dsummon's karakuri deck. I built it myself and made it much more consistent than DS' build Smile

P.S : If u guys wanna add me on your team, maybe we could meet up and you'll see for yourself how good my build is Very Happy

Maybe u can join me and elijahkwanxy. Not to mention I will bear the 30$ cost.
If you register via ygo-cafe, you will only need to pay $24. You can email your registration to ygo-cafe@hotmail.com
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Machinist
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PostSubject: Re: YGO-Cafe: Team Cup 2010 - 18th December 2010 @ Cardmaster   Thu Dec 02, 2010 11:00 pm

navinetwork wrote:
Machinist wrote:
weswes246 wrote:
Hey Smile Anybody needs another duelist ?

I got BF and Machina Karakuri Smile

MY machina karakuri deck is testing out pretty good (beaten quickdraw, BF, machina gadget during my play testing with some players Smile )

PLEASE NOTE : MY deck list is not like Dsummon's karakuri deck. I built it myself and made it much more consistent than DS' build Smile

P.S : If u guys wanna add me on your team, maybe we could meet up and you'll see for yourself how good my build is Very Happy

Maybe u can join me and elijahkwanxy. Not to mention I will bear the 30$ cost.
If you register via ygo-cafe, you will only need to pay $24. You can email your registration to ygo-cafe@hotmail.com

I will let them decide on the team name and email to u Smile
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zzxiaoboizz
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PostSubject: Re: YGO-Cafe: Team Cup 2010 - 18th December 2010 @ Cardmaster   Fri Dec 03, 2010 6:06 pm

Machinist wrote:
Anyone want to team up with me? I want to join but i can't find any 3 ppl team.
. Lol i looking for team too, mind meeting 1 day and hav a few games? Btw polar user looking for team lol im a starter lol
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edward7125
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PostSubject: Re: YGO-Cafe: Team Cup 2010 - 18th December 2010 @ Cardmaster   Fri Dec 03, 2010 8:53 pm

can anybody take me in pls? Laughing Laughing Laughing
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edward7125
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PostSubject: Re: YGO-Cafe: Team Cup 2010 - 18th December 2010 @ Cardmaster   Fri Dec 03, 2010 8:54 pm

p.s.i using monster add with polar
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awesomehazelnuts
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PostSubject: Re: YGO-Cafe: Team Cup 2010 - 18th December 2010 @ Cardmaster   Fri Dec 03, 2010 9:06 pm

pampers would gladly want you in their team.
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vampirerion
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PostSubject: Re: YGO-Cafe: Team Cup 2010 - 18th December 2010 @ Cardmaster   Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:33 am

awesomehazelnuts wrote:
pampers would gladly want you in their team.

dun be an [censored by admin]. pampers would wan to team with *ahem*
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YGOduelist
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PostSubject: Re: YGO-Cafe: Team Cup 2010 - 18th December 2010 @ Cardmaster   Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:47 am

@vamperion lol with who ???? C ?
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vampirerion
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PostSubject: Re: YGO-Cafe: Team Cup 2010 - 18th December 2010 @ Cardmaster   Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:50 am

obviously?? nvr see facebook nowadays the hottest ygo facebook group/page.
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YGOduelist
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PostSubject: Re: YGO-Cafe: Team Cup 2010 - 18th December 2010 @ Cardmaster   Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:55 am

lol btw i remembered that ur wanted to create a facebook page , anyone of ur created ????
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vampirerion
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PostSubject: Re: YGO-Cafe: Team Cup 2010 - 18th December 2010 @ Cardmaster   Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:56 am

lennon did.
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YGOduelist
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PostSubject: Re: YGO-Cafe: Team Cup 2010 - 18th December 2010 @ Cardmaster   Wed Dec 08, 2010 10:05 am

jia jie tell me the fb page name . pm me
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Kenshin
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PostSubject: Re: YGO-Cafe: Team Cup 2010 - 18th December 2010 @ Cardmaster   Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:13 am

lol pampers wanna be with start with letter C ! LOL. anyway x saber here any takers?Sad i'm a nub!
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vampirerion
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PostSubject: Re: YGO-Cafe: Team Cup 2010 - 18th December 2010 @ Cardmaster   Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:14 am

Kenshin wrote:
lol pampers wanna be with start with letter C ! LOL. anyway x saber here any takers?Sad i'm a nub!

i tot you say you trader not player??

lol nvm anyway since you are there you might as well scrub the toilet at the mrt.
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Kenshin
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PostSubject: Re: YGO-Cafe: Team Cup 2010 - 18th December 2010 @ Cardmaster   Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:18 am

i trader + nub player Very Happy u nb ks u in maple! RAWR RAWR u wan chair?^^ sat coming cm anot?
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vampirerion
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PostSubject: Re: YGO-Cafe: Team Cup 2010 - 18th December 2010 @ Cardmaster   Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:19 am

Kenshin wrote:
i trader + nub player Very Happy u nb ks u in maple! RAWR RAWR u wan chair?^^ sat coming cm anot?


see how first..... LOL maple i help you mc service so zai... scam all the noobs.. then the pay low sia.
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Kenshin
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PostSubject: Re: YGO-Cafe: Team Cup 2010 - 18th December 2010 @ Cardmaster   Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:20 am

500k ok liao leh where got low. eh we go the chit chat there talk cock la if not later tio admin wrath!
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navinetwork
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PostSubject: Re: YGO-Cafe: Team Cup 2010 - 18th December 2010 @ Cardmaster   Tue Dec 14, 2010 3:56 pm

Hi fellow Duelists, this coming Saturday is the Team Cup, do register via ygo-cafe to enjoy the special price for entry (:
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Machinist
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PostSubject: Re: YGO-Cafe: Team Cup 2010 - 18th December 2010 @ Cardmaster   Wed Dec 15, 2010 9:20 pm

navinetwork wrote:
Hi fellow Duelists, this coming Saturday is the Team Cup, do register via ygo-cafe to enjoy the special price for entry (:

Just register today. Hope you see our email.
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mutton
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PostSubject: Re: YGO-Cafe: Team Cup 2010 - 18th December 2010 @ Cardmaster   Fri Dec 17, 2010 11:14 am

how to confirm registration?lyk whether the email is sent or not?
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Machinist
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PostSubject: Re: YGO-Cafe: Team Cup 2010 - 18th December 2010 @ Cardmaster   Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:50 pm

mutton wrote:
how to confirm registration?lyk whether the email is sent or not?

I email to them and told them to reply back if they receive the email, in which they did. So now I got the $24 registration discount fee Smile
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navinetwork
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PostSubject: Re: YGO-Cafe: Team Cup 2010 - 18th December 2010 @ Cardmaster   Sat Dec 18, 2010 2:19 am

Dear Duelists,

Like Machinist had mentioned, we will reply you to confirm your registration with YGO-Cafe to enjoy the discounted Entry Fee.

And a little update from the Main Organizer of the day from some suggestions to YGO-Cafe.

The Tournament will be changed from Single Elimination to Double Elimination format.
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navinetwork
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PostSubject: Re: YGO-Cafe: Team Cup 2010 - 18th December 2010 @ Cardmaster   Sun Dec 19, 2010 12:49 am

The YGO-Cafe: Team Cup 2010
- The Top 8 Result

The Staff of YGO-Cafe would want to thanks to all the supporters for coming down to Cardmaster to join the Tournament.

The Staff Team would truly apologise on the format chosen (Double Elimination). It's a wrong choice choosing that as it need to start earlier if we to use the format.

We do hope that you all will continue to support us in our future tournament and we will try our best to improve ourselves as this is our 2nd Major Tournament. Do hope you all understand about it and sorry for any inconvience caused.

Sorry about it. We will try our best not to use this format in our future tournament and stick to everyone's familiarise format - Swiss Format, Round Robin or Single Elimination.

Here is the result of the day:-

Total Number of Teams Participated: 18 Teams

1st: Team oGs (1 Box of Duel Disk -Yusei Version - 2010) - Sam, Max & Akira
2nd: Team We Are Late Cause Of MonHunt(3 Sets of Foil Pack (6 Packs Per Set with 1 Pack With Foil)) - Alex, Clarence & Bahamut

3rd: Team Kami-Sama (3 Boxes of Lost Sanctuary Structure Deck (SD20)) - Jeric, William & Daniel

4th: Team 9 Gateways (3 Books of Weekly Jump 2/2011 (Comes With Tech Genus Hyper Librarian))
5th: Team ? (3 Sets Foil Pack (3 Packs Per Set with 1 Pack With Foil))
6th: Team Ghost (3 Boxes of Lost Sanctuary Structure Deck (SD20))
7th: Team OSU (6 Packs of Hidden Arsenal Volume 3 (HA03) Boosters (TCG))
8th: Tmea NYP (3 Set of 2nd Layer Card Protectors)
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Tabris
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PostSubject: Re: YGO-Cafe: Team Cup 2010 - 18th December 2010 @ Cardmaster   Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:16 pm

This is my feedback for the tournament
---

Clearly, the talking point is the change of tournament format during the tournament itself.
There were 18 teams for this tournament, and double elimination was used in the beginning.

Double elimination does not plainly mean "you've 2 life and you're out after you lost twice". When did a participant (team) lose in the winner bracket will determine where they are inserted in the loser bracket. This will determine who is the opponent as well. There is a misconception whereby participants with '2 life' are randomly paired with each other, and participants with '1 life' are randomly paired with each other.

It is easy to solve this problem. A computer program can be used, or even a simple hand-drawn table can prevent such flaw.

It is not all bad. I was impressed with how it was in the beginning because only 4 teams played against each other for the 1st round. This is due to the imperfect number of participants (18), which is not the power of 2. For more information regarding the rationale behind this, click HERE.

The problem came after match 26 was played (refer to the above link), whereby there were only 2 teams left in the winner bracket. Apparently there were 9 teams left and the organiser wanted to cut it to top 8 from there. If you look at the table again, there will only be 8 teams left after match 24. Therefore, there had to be a mistake somewhere, as there shouldn't have 9 teams left.

To make the matter worse, 2 teams were randomly picked to fight for the 8th place and the loser will be 9th and got dropped out of the tournament. This scenario was theoretically impossible in an elimination.

Organiser then proposed to have a single elimination for the top 8. It is ridiculous.
Obviously, it contradicted with the very purpose of having a double elimination to begin with. The 2 teams with '2 life' lost their rightful advantage of being in the winner bracket. At the same time, it is unfair to teams who lost in the later stage of the winner bracket.

After protest from some participants, it was later changed to a 'fake' double elimination. The 2 teams who were in the final of winner bracket will continue as they supposed to, and play against each other in the winner bracket. However, every team in the loser bracket played against each other in a shuffled single elimination. This solved the problem for the winner bracket but not the loser bracket. It was still unfair to teams who lost in the later stage of the winner bracket. For e.g., Team MonHunt who lost in the top 4 of the winner bracket, whereby they've already secured at least a top 6 finish, and have to play from the top 8 position again.

After the next round of matches were played, there were 4 teams left in the loser bracket, which consisted of 1 who just lost in the final of the winner bracket. This particular team technically had already secured at least a top 3 finish. However, these 4 teams then played against each other randomly, the loser from the final of winner bracket should play against the team who was left from the loser bracket instead.

You may ask how will the 3 teams (exclude the team who supposed to wait in the final of the loser bracket) be paired up? This should not have occurred in the first place, just like the 'top 9' when there should only be 8 teams left at a certain point of the tournament. In the end, the loser of the winner bracket final (Team 9 Gateways) lost and was 4th. Their 'at least a top 3 finish' was robbed from them.

The '6th-8th' teams had to play against other to earn their position in a shocking way. 2 members were picked from each team, and played in a 'triangular pairing'. Shouldn't this be a 3v3 team tournament? In a proper double elimination, all top 4 positions can be identified without playing additional matches. If there is a need, 2 teams in the 5th-6th positions will play against each other to determine their positions. Same for 7th and 8th. These matches can be played simultaneously while top 4 play their matches, which can save time. And time was the reason I was given for the change of format.

From my experience of organising Chess and Go tournaments at various levels, there are a few basic factors that will affect the time of a tournament.
- Venue
- Number of participants
- Duration of a match
- Technical problem

1. Venue
It is a something that can be controlled by the organiser. For this tournament, the organiser should know how many teams can play simultaneously in Cardmaster, because the number of chairs and tables are fixed.

2. Number of participants
The pre-registration is a good touch from the organiser. This can help them gauge the number of paricipants.

3. Duration of a match
This is controllable for YuGiOh, because there is a time limit for a match. The time needed to end a match after the time limit is up is relatively predictable, unlike in Chess and Go for some formats.

4. Technical problem
I'm referring to computer problem, for e.g. the mantis system crashed. If a proper computer program was used in a double elimination, there would not be a 'top 9 problem'. So this is not applicable for this tournament. At least an elimination table should be drawn.

In my opinion, the main reason why there wasn't enough time was that the tournament started 1hr 35min late. It was clearly stated that it should be 2pm, but the first round was only started at 3:35pm. This is a problem for the Singapore YuGiOh community as a whole. Participants do not arrive on time, and organisers decide to give in and wait. It is unfair for those who arrive on time. This bad habit will snowball down. The late participants will think it's appropriate since the world will wait for them, and those who were on time will just follow and do the same. Then what is the purpose of stating the time for the tournament? Organisers need to be firm on this matter, and not just wait for some inconsiderate players. Soon these players will learn that the world will not wait for them and be on time next time. If an organiser wishes to be lenient to the latecomers, probably 15min is still reasonable. But 1hr35min is ridiculous.

---

It is stated clearly in the post that "- The Protector at the front of your card must be TRANSPARENT."
There was still a player who did not follow this and started to change it upon request at the start of a match, and it was such tiny thing that took up time from the tournament unnecessarily.

---

Quote :
Sorry about it. We will try our best not to use this format in our future tournament and stick to everyone's familiarise format - Swiss Format, Round Robin or Single Elimination.

It is not that everyone is unfamiliar with double elimination. It is about the organisers should use a format that they are familiar with and prepare for it.

If you fail to plan, you plan to fail.


Last edited by Tabris on Tue Dec 21, 2010 2:10 am; edited 2 times in total
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zzxiaoboizz
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PostSubject: Re: YGO-Cafe: Team Cup 2010 - 18th December 2010 @ Cardmaster   Tue Dec 21, 2010 12:09 am

Tabris wrote:
This is my feedback for the tournament
---

Clearly, the talking point is the change of tournament format during the tournament itself.
There were 18 teams for this tournament, and double elimination was used in the beginning.

Double elimination does not plainly mean "you've 2 life and you're out after you lost twice". When did a participant (team) lose in the winner bracket will determine where they are inserted in the loser bracket. This will determine who is the opponent as well. There is a misconception whereby participants with '2 life' are randomly paired with each other, and participants with '1 life' are randomly paired with each other.

It is easy to solve this problem. A computer program can be used, or even a simple hand-drawn table can prevent such flaw.

It is not all bad. I was impressed with how it was in the beginning because only 4 teams played against each other for the 1st round. This is due to the imperfect number of participants (18), which is not the power of 2. For more information regarding the rationale behind this, click HERE.

The problem came after match 26 was played (refer to the above link), whereby there were only 2 teams left in the winner bracket. Apparently there are 9 teams left and the organiser wanted to to cut it to top 8 from there. If you look at the table again, there will only be 8 teams left after match 24. Therefore, there had to be a mistake somewhere, as there shouldn't have 9 teams left.

To make the matter worse, 2 teams were randomly picked to fight for the 8th place and the loser will be 9th and got dropped out of the tournament. This scenario was theoretically impossible in an elimination.

Organiser then proposed to have a single elimination for the top 8. It is ridiculous.
Obviously, it contradicted with the very purpose of having a double elimination to begin with. The 2 teams with '2 life' lost their rightful advantage of being in the winner bracket. At the same time, it is unfair to teams who lost in the later stage of the winner bracket.

After protest from some participants, it was later changed to a 'fake' double elimination. The 2 teams who were in the final of winner bracket will continue as they supposed to, and play against each other in the winner bracket. However, every team in the loser bracket played against each other in a shuffled single elimination. This solved the problem for the winner bracket but not the loser bracket. It was still unfair to teams who lost in the later stage of the winner bracket. For e.g., Team MonHunt who lost in the top 4 of the winner bracket, whereby they've already secured at least a top 6 finish, and have to play from the top 8 position again.

After the next round of matches were played, there were 4 teams left in the loser bracket, which consisted of 1 who just lost in the final of the winner bracket. This particular team technically had already secured at least a top 3 finish. However, these 4 teams then played against each other randomly, the loser from the final of winner bracket should play against the team who was left from the loser bracket instead.

You may ask how will the 3 teams (exclude the team who supposed to wait in the final of the loser bracket) be paired up? This should not have occurred in the first place, just like the 'top 9' when there should only be 8 teams left at a certain point of the tournament. In the end, the loser of the winner bracket final (Team 9 Gateways) lost and was 4th. Their 'at least a top 3 finish' was robbed from them.

The '6th-8th' teams had to play against other to earn their position in a shocking way. 2 members were picked from each team, and played in a 'triangular pairing'. Shouldn't this be a 3v3 team tournament? In a proper double elimination, all top 4 positions can be identified without playing additional matches. If there is a need, 2 teams in the 5th-6th positions will play against each other to determine their positions. Same for 7th and 8th. These matches can be played simultaneously while top 4 play their matches, which can save time. And time was the reason I was given for the change of format.

From my experience of organising Chess and Go tournaments at various levels, there are a few basic factors that will affect the time of a tournament.
- Venue
- Number of participants
- Duration of a match
- Technical problem

1. Venue
It is a something that can be controlled by the organiser. For this tournament, the organiser should know how many teams can play simultaneously in Cardmaster, because the number of chairs and tables are fixed.

2. Number of participants
The pre-registration is a good touch from the organiser. This can help them gauge the number of paricipants.

3. Duration of a match
This is controllable for YuGiOh, because there is a time limit for a match. The time needed to end a match after the time limit is up is relatively predictable, unlike in Chess and Go for some formats.

4. Technical problem
I'm referring to computer problem, for e.g. the mantis system crashed. If a proper computer program was used in a double elimination, there would not be a 'top 9 problem'. So this is not applicable for this tournament. At least an elimination table should be drawn.

In my opinion, the main reason why there wasn't enough time was that the tournament started 1hr 35min late. It was clearly stated that it should be 2pm, but the first round was only started at 3:35pm. This is a problem for the Singapore YuGiOh community as a whole. Participants do not arrive on time, and organisers decide to give in and wait. It is unfair for those who arrive on time. This bad habit will snowball down. The late participants will think it's appropriate since the world will wait for them, and those who were on time will just follow and do the same. Then what is the purpose of stating the time for the tournament? Organisers need to be firm on this matter, and not just wait for some inconsiderate players. Soon these players will learn that the world will not wait for them and be on time next time. If an organiser wishes to be lenient to the latecomers, probably 15min is still reasonable. But 1hr35min is ridiculous.

---

It is stated clearly in the post that "- The Protector at the front of your card must be TRANSPARENT."
There was still a player who did not follow this and started to change it upon request at the start of a match, and it was such tiny thing that took up time from the tournament unnecessarily.

---

Quote :
Sorry about it. We will try our best not to use this format in our future tournament and stick to everyone's familiarise format - Swiss Format, Round Robin or Single Elimination.

It is not that everyone is unfamiliar with double elimination. It is about the organisers should use a format that they are familiar with and prepare for it.

If you fail to plan, you plan to fail.
Well said u deserve credit for doing this detailed report
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elijahkwanxy
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PostSubject: Re: YGO-Cafe: Team Cup 2010 - 18th December 2010 @ Cardmaster   Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:55 am

i think that organizer shd give like 10-15mins grace. Late, disqualified.
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PostSubject: Re: YGO-Cafe: Team Cup 2010 - 18th December 2010 @ Cardmaster   Today at 4:22 am

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YGO-Cafe: Team Cup 2010 - 18th December 2010 @ Cardmaster
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