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 Seriously.I Need Help.

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XiaoCola
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PostSubject: Seriously.I Need Help.   Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:09 am

I am Really Sick Of this.
There Are people saying sum stuff arent cost,
and if drop, can use effect(Demonic Roaring God Valkiris effect, dropping Dark world)

seriously.
What Are The Real Meaning Of Cost.

How do u define wad is cost?
How do u noe if a monster,after paying cost,when face down, do not resolve effect?
Mind Explaining how u define this from a card:D
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Lockon
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PostSubject: Re: Seriously.I Need Help.   Wed Oct 21, 2009 8:03 am

It is like when you buy something you need to pay for it... But in this case, you will have forgo something ( Life-points, Battle-phase, Summon-phase ) to use the effect of the card... So in this case, when you use solemn judgement, no matter whether the effect get through or not, you still have to pay half of your life-points upon activiation of the card...
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Proxy King
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PostSubject: Re: Seriously.I Need Help.   Wed Oct 21, 2009 8:28 am

demonic roar god is an exception

for eg . as long as demonic roar god luri is discared from hand to grave , despite it being discarded as a cost by another effect , its effect will still activate
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Lolzorx
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PostSubject: Re: Seriously.I Need Help.   Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:53 am

to simply define cost(just a rough one)
Cost:You Pay for something before you get the effect
Not Cost:You get the effect before you pay for something
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flamemode
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PostSubject: Re: Seriously.I Need Help.   Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:07 am

i using a DEMON ROAR too.

so from what i know only luri ' effect can be used, Dark world can not. the DT07 cards i still not quite sure.

in addition. some time the cost are stated at the start of the effect that is why Demonic Roaring God Valkiris is discard then draw.

but dark world are destory then drop so the drop are not consider a cost.
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DSummon
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PostSubject: Re: Seriously.I Need Help.   Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:32 am

Just a quick look at the cards, knowledge of Japanese will be best, if not, refer to your english version of the cards.

Lightning Vortex:
手札を1枚捨てて発動する。
相手フィールド上に表側表示で存在するモンスターを全て破壊する。

Dark world lightning:
フィールド上に裏側表示で存在するカード1枚を選択して破壊する。
その後、自分の手札を1枚選択して捨てる。

Whats the difference between this 2 cards, other then the effect of destroying face up/down cards? Well, for lightning vortex, it states clearly at the first sentence the cost for discarding 1 card from hand, then ends with a full stop before going on to the effect of the card. This is typical of cards with cost. You can go look at any cost related cards, and they will be similar. (Note, not 100% true, but at least 95%)

As for dark world lightning, it actually states destroy the card first, then adds on with a discard a card. In this case, the discard is due to an effect. Usually, if the effect does not go through, the discard does not happen as well, as it is due to an effect. E.g., if opponent chains and turns the card face up, the destroy face down card effect does not go through, and you do not discard a card.

Now, on to explaining why the demon roars can go through even though its cost. Actually, alot of cards can take effect even IF it is discarded through a cost. Its just a matter of timing lost. Again, some examples.

Demon Roar God - Kruz
このカードが手札から墓地へ捨てられた時、自分の墓地に存在するこのカード以外の
レベル4以下の「魔轟神」と名のついたモンスター1体を特殊召喚する。

Jinzo Returner
このカードが墓地に送られた時、自分の墓地に存在する
「人造人間-サイコ・ショッカー」1体を特殊召喚する事ができる。
(I just chopped out the important part to paste here)

Alright, now why do the demon roar god has so many monsters that are able to appear even though it is cost. As mentioned, alot of cards actually DO have effect even though it is cost. Its just that the timing is lost. Why demon roar god does not lose timing is due to the last 2 words of the card, する, where Jinzo returner has the last 3 words of the cards, できる.

In essence, the last few words has actually a strong change on the effect. Where it ends with those 2 words shown up there, it actually means: "You *insert effect*", or a compulsory effect, that MUST be carried out as long as it is possible. E.g. you dont have a full field of monsters already, etc. However, if it ends with the 3 words, it becomes: "You MAY *insert effect*", or otherwise an optional effect.

This additional MAY, causes it to possible lose timing, as you cannot insert card effects while another card effect is still resolving. E.g. While the dark world lightning is resolving, you CANNOT destroy the monster, but chain some other card, before you discard 1 card from hand. Therefore in this case, if i discard jinzo returner with lightning vortex, I CANNOT revive jinzo while the monsters have not been destroyed yet. However, after the monsters have been destroyed, the timing has been lost for the card activation and hence Jinzo cannot be revived.

However, if I discard Jinzo returner with dark world lightning, Jinzo CAN be revived, as the last thing to happen with dark world lightning is the discarding of returner, hence, not chopping up the effect. Whereas Kruz can revive its friends regardless how it is discarded as it is a compulsory effect. Regardless of timing, it HAS to revive, no matter what. So it will just let all the old cards resolve, before starting a new chain on its own for its compulsory effect.

So yup, compulsory effects are not necessary bad (As in case of death caliber knight), they can make a card fantastic as well. I hope this lengthy post has answered your questions.
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bahamut84
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PostSubject: Re: Seriously.I Need Help.   Wed Oct 21, 2009 12:26 pm

Another easy way for the non japanese reader by identifying the punctuation

USUALLY, if it is a cost, you will see a full stop before the actual effect.
"Pay 1000 LP. "
"Discard one card from your hand. "
"Tribute one monster. "

In the case of Valkiris:
手札から悪魔族モンスター1体を捨てて発動する自分のデッキからカードを1枚ドローする。この効果は1ターンに1度しか使用できない。

Discard one Fiend monster from your hand to activate. Draw 1 card from your deck. You can only activate this effect once per turn.

So you see the discard is a cost =)

It can be confusing coz i check from wiki they just put
"Once per turn, you can discard 1 Fiend-Type monster to draw 1 card."
which is like super wrong lah.

Quote :
How do u noe if a monster,after paying cost,when face down, do not resolve effect?
In general, msot monsters will still have it's effect resolved even while turned face down. Some card got state that it has to be face up to use it's effect which will be negated when it turns face down.

Example is Zombie Master
このカードがフィールド上に表側表示で存在する限り、
手札のモンスターカード1枚を墓地に送る事で、
自分または相手の墓地に存在するレベル4以下のアンデット族モンスター1体を特殊召喚する。
この効果は1ターンに1度しか使用できない。

The first sentence says "when this card is face up on the field, discard one monster card to activate."

while Lightlord Summoner Lumina says
1ターンに1度、手札を1枚捨てる事で自分の墓地に存在するレベル4以下の
「ライトロード」と名のついたモンスター1体を自分フィールド上に特殊召喚する。

"Once per turn, discard one card to special summon a level 4 or lower Lightlord Monster from your graveyard on your side of the field"

Which is why the difference in Book of Moon love.

Once again I blame the english text on Zombie master for not making it clear.
"Once per turn, you can send 1 Monster Card from your hand to the Graveyard to Special Summon 1 Level 4 or lower Zombie-Type Monster from either player's Graveyard."

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L0KI
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PostSubject: Re: Seriously.I Need Help.   Wed Oct 21, 2009 1:20 pm

in my case I memo everything that is cost and not cost. so far the only demon god whose effect is not a cost is raven. and the one which text says discard. then the other effect is on the next sentence , means no cost.
for eq text from dark world dealings "Each player draws 1 card. Then each player discards 1 card" .

valkyrus is a cost
"Once per turn, you can discard 1 Fiend-Type monster to draw 1 card"
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kKbz
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PostSubject: Re: Seriously.I Need Help.   Wed Oct 21, 2009 1:24 pm

Zombie master english text differs?
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bahamut84
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PostSubject: Re: Seriously.I Need Help.   Wed Oct 21, 2009 1:35 pm

Apparently it left out the important part where it says it has to be face up on the field.

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wingwing98
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PostSubject: Re: Seriously.I Need Help.   Wed Oct 21, 2009 1:43 pm

the english text for zombie master had the "face up" part when it was printed in dont know which version,after that they didnt print that part anymore.
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kKbz
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PostSubject: Re: Seriously.I Need Help.   Wed Oct 21, 2009 3:11 pm

oh , =x I kinda remember the differences now ^^" ..
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Axehead
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PostSubject: Re: Seriously.I Need Help.   Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:06 pm

Aiya, rather, to make it much simpler, cost is "Do something to get something."

So the do something part is effect and what you get is the effect. So usually cost is found in front, cause it tells you what to do before you get your effect. Aiya, at most just go read rulebook, that's what it's for anyway.

And more info: http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Cost

EDIT: As for the face-up part, like earlier mentioned, some cards state they need to be face up, while some don't But like all things, there are exceptions and hence the need for players to update themselves on specific card rulings.
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bahamut84
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PostSubject: Re: Seriously.I Need Help.   Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:17 pm

That will confuse people playing pot of avarice lol

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wingwing98
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PostSubject: Re: Seriously.I Need Help.   Wed Oct 21, 2009 7:03 pm

aiyah like what baha said,just take note of the comma,full stop or the words like "....and..." etc.to dy/dx cost and effect.
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Axehead
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PostSubject: Re: Seriously.I Need Help.   Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:46 pm

Lol, true.

But then that means they have to read up on ACTIVATION REQUIREMENTS too. In a way 'cost' is just to select.
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XiaoCola
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PostSubject: Re: Seriously.I Need Help.   Thu Oct 22, 2009 3:31 am

Oic .
OK
TY:D
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pokekid88
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PostSubject: Re: Seriously.I Need Help.   Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:47 am

Another card which isn't considered as cost is Magical Dimension (ディメンション・マジック)

So does that means if i tribute lighty to summon another monster, lighty's effect will activate?

* Tributing a monster for "Magical Dimension" is not a cost; it's part of the effect and happens when the effect resolves. If the effect of "Magical Dimension" is negated then you do not Tribute a monster.[1]

* You don't have to destroy a monster when using "Magical Dimension"; it's optional. If you do choose to destroy a monster, then it's resolved at the same time as the rest of "Magical Dimension's" effect.[1
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PostSubject: Re: Seriously.I Need Help.   Today at 2:03 pm

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